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hand_research
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Posted: Mon Mar 10th, 2008 11:34 pm |
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The Finger Book
This book is about a simple measurement of the human hand: the 'Finger Ratio'.
Author: Professor John T. Manning
Release: 4 March 2008
Publisher's description:
"Deals with the 'finger ratio', or the length of the ring finger relative to the index finger. This book employs finger ratio to examine a group of questions about human behaviour, from sexuality, to musical ability, to predisposition to disease."
You can read more about the book at:
The Finger Book
And the recent developments described in the book are discussed in these 2 articles:
What our fingers can tell us
You know what they say about men with long ring fingers
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hand_research
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:40 am |
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I am looking forward to read Manning's second book, because his first book ('Digit Ratio' - published in 2002) was very interesting to read - though the vocabulary of his first book was rather scientific.
Human-nature.com presents an informative review about Manning's first book:
http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/02/manning.html
Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:41 am by hand_research
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Sue Compton
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:40 am |
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Hi Martijn
Thanks for this information. The links to the articles on your site were really interesting
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hand_research
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:42 am |
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for the feedback!
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Lynn
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:53 am |
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Thanks Martijn, I hope his new book is easier to read than the first one (for non-scientists!). I never finished Digit Ratio, it was such heavy going.
Martijn, do you know, as I have never been able to find out.... There are two fundamental things I have never been able to fully understand in Mannings research, as they seem to be assumptions ?.....
all this research is based on the "assumption" that finger development depends on the amount of testosterone that the foetus is exposed to in the womb. I say 'assumption', as I have never found any scientific research about it (apart from something on some kind of bird I think).
Also Manning says that relative finger length is set before birth and never changes throughout life. Again, where are the long term studies from baby to adult that prove that relative finger length does not change?
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hand_research
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 01:28 am |
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Lynn wrote: all this research is based on the "assumption" that finger development depends on the amount of testosterone that the foetus is exposed to in the womb. I say 'assumption', as I have never found any scientific research about it (apart from something on some kind of bird I think).
Hi Lynn,
The 'Testosterone - ring finger hypothesis' is supported by multiple sources of evidence. The early findings were presented in Manning's first book. And over the hears many evidence was found which supports the 'Testosterone - ring finger hypothesis'.
I think your problem might be that you expect to see some prove which presents direct measurements of the effect of early testosterone levels in fetuses.... however, this is impossible!
This is clarified by John Manning in this 3 minute video of John Manning:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3465806.ece
(Actually, this video can also be found via 3th article in my first posting of this discussion!)
Hopefully, this quick answer is sufficient for you (because as you probably know, we are talking about a very complicated matter).
Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 01:29 am by hand_research
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hand_research
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 01:39 am |
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Lynn wrote: Also Manning says that relative finger length is set before birth and never changes throughout life. Again, where are the long term studies from baby to adult that prove that relative finger length does not change?
Yes, I understand your point.
Actually, some of the first evidence is presented in Manning's first book.
Lynn, at this point in time you should consider the fact that Manning's work is very young. So, I expect within about 10 years that we will see those 'long term studies from baby to adult'.
Up till then we'll have to judge the other evidence.
By the way, the article on Wikipedia about 'Digit Ratio' is very informative regarding both of your questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio
Again, I hope that my short answer will be sufficient for you.
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Lynn
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 02:17 am |
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Quick answers about this kind of thing are never sufficient for me Martijn!! 
A few weeks ago I visited Johnny Fincham, we last met about 10 years ago. Johnny told me that he heard about me a few years before we first met.... my hand analysis tutor, Christopher, had told him about this difficult student who asked too many questions and took up too much of his time. ooops. 
But of course I might not understand the complex answers 
I couldn't watch the video earlier (no sound) but now it worked OK. The previous photos I've seen of Manning look much younger! He looks /sounds a nice guy. Have you ever corresponded with him? I'd love to know if he has ever considered studying other parts of the hand!
well...yes, I expect to see some proof! I thought that's what science was about! ;-) He still says they "think" it is due to pre-natal exposure to testosterone and admits they can't be sure. He did not provide any concrete evidence of it being due to pre-natal exposure to androgen testosterone in his first book - if he did, please tell me what page! I just had a look on pub-med and saw some expts on gulls, mice & rats. Ok, I know they can't experiment on human foetus!
I accept the findings, he has researched it well and obviously a low 2D:4D digit ratio is significant as a "testosterone thing" - the results of these expts are concrete and more important than the reasoning or assumptions behind it,,,,, but they are still assuming it is due to amount of testosterone exposed to in the womb... aren't they?
What about my other question re "relative finger length is set before birth and never changes throughout life." - do you know any proof of that?
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Lynn
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 02:20 am |
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Thank you for second reply Martijn, I was writing my last message - and also I looked at the wikipedia article before you posted it
PS the study on birds I mentioned earlier were the pheasants in the wikipedia link :-)
Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 02:21 am by Lynn
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hand_research
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:19 pm |
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Lynn wrote: well...yes, I expect to see some proof! I thought that's what science was about! ;-) He still says they "think" it is due to pre-natal exposure to testosterone and admits they can't be sure. He did not provide any concrete evidence of it being due to pre-natal exposure to androgen testosterone in his first book - if he did, please tell me what page! What about my other question re "relative finger length is set before birth and never changes throughout life." - do you know any proof of that?
Hi Lynn,
My second attempt to answer your 2 questions:
I just found my first Manning book and it wasn't hard to find the evidence presented in his book:
- The evidence for your first point is presented in chapter 2: 'Asociations with testosterone and estrogen'.
By the way, just like the message of his video, Manning notices in this chapter 2 (page 25):
'The relationship between 2D:4D ratio and fetal testosterone is difficult to measure directly'.
My comment: And therefore Lynn, you should not look for 'direct' evidence ... all the evidence Manning presents regarding your point first point, can be discribed as 'indirect' evidence. Simply because it appears impossible to acquire 'direct' measurements/evidence: a mission-impossible!
- The evidence for your second point is presented on page 30, the 'Garn' (1975) research, and I also found a summary of this Garn study for you:
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/37557
My comment: according this Garn study relative finger length (more specific: the bone structure!) appears to fixed at week 13 during the pregnancy.
PS. No, I never contacted Manning.
Last edited on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:24 pm by hand_research
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Lynn
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 12:52 pm |
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| Thank you Martijn. :-)
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hand_research
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Posted: Fri Mar 21st, 2008 12:13 am |
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Beyond 'The Finger Book', I would like to post here another interesting illustration for the opportunities provided by 'Digit Ratio' research:
Digit Ratio researchers in Germany 'seem' to have identified a 'biologic component' in the etiology of TRANSEXUALITY:
2 weeks ago I received a short comment on this Youtube video (in German language): http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=h6BUQfHI3pA
And during a quick search on the internet I found the following sources:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9
http://www.rundschau-online.de/html/artikel/1193047475720.shtml
Next to 'digit ratio' ... the Youtube video says that there is no other evidence at all which supports the 'biological' component in the etiology of Transexuality.
... Fascinating?
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hand_research
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 12:39 am |
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 ... I have just found an online version of classic works which preceded Manning's work:
THE PRINCIPLES OF ANATOMY: AS SEEN IN THE HAND
FREDERIC WOOD JONES
I recognized it immediately because many years ago I found very interesting references to this work:
http://ebook.lib.hku.hk/CADAL/B31423917/
(to open the book, you must click on 'table of contents' in the left colum, and then on 'contents')
Thought this work of was presented in 1920, Chapter 3 does describe the basis of Mannings work on 'Digit Ratio'
CHAPTER III. THE DIGITAL FORMULA
And in the others chapters all other fudamental aspects of the human hand ... and the primate hand are being discussed in detail!
Last edited on Sun Sep 28th, 2008 12:40 am by hand_research
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Lynn
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 01:44 am |
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Aaah! Thank you Martijn!!!  I am so excited!!!
Frederick Wood Jones "Principles of Anatomy in the Hand" was one of my favourite books about 12 years ago. I borrowed it from the library for a whole year until it fell to pieces and they requisitioned it for repair, never to be seen again. I even typed out whole chapters on my old computer! (what a geek!) but they were saved on old style 5.25" floppy disc so haven't been able to access it for years, and never found it to buy. Ah yes all the digital formula info! A great book. Thank you for finding it!!
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Manfred
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Posted: Sun Sep 28th, 2008 10:07 am |
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Thank you for the interesting German article, Martijn! - Look for the ring finger at the Obama picture I've sent you....
Manfred
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hand_research
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 12:47 pm |
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THE LATEST DEVELOPMENT IN DIGIT RATIO RESEARCH:
 
A SECRET YOUR FINGER LENGTH REVEALS!
Reuters Health reports about finger length ratio.
October 27, 2008
Look at the length of your index finger in relation to your ring finger. If your index finger is longer, you're probably a 'couch potato'. If your ring finger is longer, chances are you love to exercise.
FULL ARTICLE: http://www.handresearch.com/news/a-secret-your-finger-length-reveals.htm
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 11:21 pm |
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Another amusing review of the same 'finger ratio' research:
BASKETBALL FINGERS, COLONIC ENEMAS & FAT!
About finger length & your physical workout!
November 19, 2008
Why basketball players have big hands, or people with big hands play basketball. And why some people voluntarily participate in intense physical exertion, and other don't.
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Manfred
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 08:15 am |
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Good morning Martijn,
would it be possible, to attach shorter and less coloured print versions of the articles on your website?
Regards
Manfred
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hand_research
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 11:32 am |
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Hi Manfred,
Sorry, but I am not sure that I understand you correctly:
Does your question implicate that you have a printed article (in black & white) which you would like to see publised on my website?
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Manfred
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 06:45 pm |
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....no I thought about If I would like to print an article from your website in a more compact version.
Manfred
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hand_research
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 06:57 pm |
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 ... Manfred, I still don't understand what you have in mind ... could you please be a bit more specific?
For example: WHICH ARTICLE do you have in mind? And for WHAT PURPOSE would you want to see the article 'printed' in more compact version?
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 09:14 pm |
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....sorry, I'll try it again: If I print one of your articles, I always simplify it: Less distances between the lines, less letter highs, without colored backround....
Manfred
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