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pamela65
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 08:06 pm |
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Hello all, This is a little ditty you may find entertaining.
Several years ago an invitation to a Halloween party from the people who repaired my car was accepted. Not knowing what to expect I dressed like a person going to meet friends. Upon arrival I discovered the party was really a concert in the theatre portion of the building. After standing for five minutes looking up through the rows, not one person was recognized. So, I went to the bar and ordered a beer.
A woman sitting next to me talking to her bf bartender ignored my attempts at introductions. Having committed to the effort of makeup, changing outfits three times, and driving, I was going to have fun. I looked at the woman's hands and made a comment that, of course, got her attention. A cursory reading of her and her boyfriend's hands was done. Within 15 minutes, there was a line of people with hands extended. For a newbie, it was amazing. People laughed, smiled, and shared the information with others. To provide hope and understanding to another person was more precious than money. But, having my beer tab paid by others was not refused. After about three hours, the concert was over and the car-shop people came in; they were in the band and did not see me when I arrived. I said that although I was sorry I missed their performance, it was a wonderful evening.
This story in no way promotes drinking prior to reading hands. To this day there is still no understanding of why the readings were so accurate. The point is that reading hands is an effective tool to create a atmosphere that enabling others to open up and enjoy themselves.
Thank you for reading
Pam
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Pam
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hand_research
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 06:17 pm |
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pamela65 wrote: This story in no way promotes drinking prior to reading hands. To this day there is still no understanding of why the readings were so accurate. The point is that reading hands is an effective tool to create a atmosphere that enabling others to open up and enjoy themselves.
Hi Pam,
Thank you for sharing your story!
Drinking prior to reading hands is very likely to induce the so-called 'Barnum-effect'.
PS. In case you have not red much about the psychology between Hand Reader and the client, you can read a bit at this section on my website:
Handanalysis Psychology
http://www.handresearch.com/hand/Evolutie/psychoEngels.htm
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Martijn van Mensvoort
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pamela65
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 08:54 pm |
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Hand_research,
Thank you so much for your reply. I will have to visit your site.
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Pam
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Sue Compton
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 09:06 pm |
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Hi Pam
The point is that reading hands is an effective tool to create a atmosphere that enabling others to open up and enjoy themselves.
I heartily agree! 
Sue
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hand_research
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 09:16 pm |
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Hi Sue,
I appreciate your warm response!
On top of that, I do would like to know how you 'value' drinking (the use of alcohol) before reading hands?
PS. I am asking for your feedback on this aspect of Pam's story, for I have the opinion that this should never be 'encouraged'!
Last edited on Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 09:26 pm by hand_research
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Martijn van Mensvoort
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Sue Compton
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 09:54 pm |
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Well .......... let me think about this ...........
A trained hand reader is armed with a lot of knowledge, and is in a position of trust. When reading hands, he should at all times act as a professional, and take his ability seriously. People who come to hand readers for readings are placing themselves in a very vulnerable position the minute they open out their hands, and it is up to the hand reader to ensure they don't betray, or worse, abuse this trust.
The worst thing a hand reader can do is look at a hand and then say 'Hmmmmmm' or 'Oh dear, I don't like the look of that!' Even if said to a person who is a little tipsy, or more, this can turn a happy, smiling face into a very worried, anxious face. And if the hand reader himself is drunk, the chances of him saying something out of place, or saying something that perhaps he shouldn't be saying at all is that much higher.
So obviously, a hand reader, like any other professional, should take his abilities seriously as he can do much harm.
I think if the hand reader is aware he has perhaps drunk so much that it has loosened his tongue to the point where he is not in total control of it, then it might be better to stop reading any more hands. The hand reader might happily say something out of place, without realising what he is saying, believing that everyone around him is in the same state of intoxication, which of course, they may not be. So yes, care must always be taken.
This is not something I have particularly considered before, because I don't tend to drink much at all these days - I already have dizzy spells without having a drink, so tend to avoid alcohol completely now, except for the occasional tipple.
I think your question is more pertinent to the serious hand analyst, who knows his stuff, because all that knowlege could be dangerous in the wrong hands. For those who are light heartedly reading hands in an equally light hearted situation, then perhaps a couple of drinks won't cause too much damage, as long as the comments remain on a light hearted level. Hand reading is certainly an ice breaker at the best of times. And it is a great way to meet others people.
Being drunk is not something I normally think about these days - I'm getting too old for it, to be honest, and I have passed that stage in life, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it!
But yes, I see what you are saying - but then again, I would hope that a professional hand reader would continue to remain professional at all levels when facing clients on a formal or informal basis.
Sue
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hand_research
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 10:36 pm |
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Thanks Sue,
Perfect!
PS. Especially, in the perspective of the fact that Pam stated very explicitely:
"This story in no way promotes drinking prior to reading hands."
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Martijn van Mensvoort
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pamela65
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| Joined: | Tue Mar 4th, 2008 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 10:44 pm |
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Well, I was not going to publicly respond, but now I am. A private email was sent to hand_research via his website.
This was in no way an indication to promote alcohol. But, since it has been opened up, I am going to respond. There apparently is an axe to grind, so I will help.
Just because a person is a professional, does not mean they have great ability. In fact, my view is that many professionals are anything but. Education and experience has value, but it is in no way a ticket to competence. A person can have all the training and experience in the world, but not be competent.
A couple of drinks is in no way intoxication. And, everything is a drug, including protein and vegetables.
The whole story was not told, nor was it told that most of my readings occurred prior to finishing the first beer. I did not think anyone would respond in such a way, including their website after insulting my ability. It was more for fun.
As far as intuitive ability, I have multiple Rings of Solomon on each hand and other indications. I also have two graduate degrees in psychology (as well as an undergraduate degree in psychology) so I do understand a little bit about psychology. This is not to pat myself on the back. I do not need that, but will defend myself as this is a public forum.
I cannot change things, but if there was a chance to do it again, I would not have posted it. It was in no way intended to lesson the profession. In actuality, it was to say that hand reading is social (it is) and that one needs to be comfortable with it.
My venting is over. Any other entertainment of hand_reader's responses would be a waste of my time.
In my opinion, it makes me wonder if hand_reader was trying to one-up me and then advertise his site.
Thank you
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Pam
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Sue Compton
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:10 pm |
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Hi Pam
I think I could see this brewing up as soon as I saw Martijn's response to your initial post. You were talking about the lighter side of palmistry and Martijn appeared to focus in on the serious side!
I can see why you feel put out, Pam, because to be honest there is absolutely nothing wrong with the social aspect of palmistry and having a few drinks with it. I would have thought that everyone, whether a serious analyst or not, should be capable of loosening up and enjoying themselves, as long as they do no harm.
However, it seems to me that Martijn took the subject further, by looking at the more serious issues of the hand reader who may be inclined to drink, perhaps in a similar situation as the hospital doctor who is an alcoholic, for instance as shown in ER recently on TV! Obviously, even in social situations, a hand reader should always take care to ensure his knowledge doesn't cause any harm.
But having said this, there is no reason why palmistry and social events should not take place together, and in fact, I'm sure they do, frequently.
I do hope this won't put you off posting and participating in the community. There are many members here, each quietly holding their own views. I'm sure that many will have warmed to your post, while some may have delved a little more deeply into the more serious issues that your post brought into consideration.
If there is one thing I have learnt in life, and especially through posting in forums with such diverse members, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time. That's one of the harsh realities of life! And something I have had to learn to live with on more occasions than I might care to remember.
Sue 
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Sue Compton
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Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:36 pm |
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Hi Martin
I'm beginning to think that Barnum is becoming an ugly word! Everyone has a hierarchy of needs, which is common ground between us all. I don't believe that we do all get a positive response from 'anything' we might suggest to a client.
For instance, if I was reading the hands of a person who lounges about all day, who never washes up, and is too idle to do anything other than sit and indulge the senses, would they agree if I told them they had boundless energy and always on the go.
And would an agorophobic readily agree if I told him he had an extroverted character that was always exploring and travelling?
Would a person who ran away from every obstacle agree with me if I told him he loved to face challenges head on?
No .....
Surely this argument about the Barnum effect only comes into play when you touch on those characteristics that we are all likely to share - on common ground? Psychologists may have learnt in more details what these needs are, but many hand analysts are not trained in recognising these common needs so readily, but will still find positive comments coming their way from their readings.
I don't know if I am any different from anyone else, but if someone suggests something to me that I don't really identify with, I will tell them. Such as the case with the radial loop on the Jupiter finger. As you know, I have one of these, as do other members of my family, and up to now, I don't think ANY hand analyst has come up with an interpretation that I could apply to each of us. I certainly have not accepted any interpretation so far. You could argue that I don't recognise a certain trait in myself. Maybe, but at the same time, I am obviously not recognising it in others of my family with this feature either. I think the interpretation is way off the mark, if I'm honest.
Barnum - cold reading - I understand your desire as a psychologist and a hand analyst to find a way to back up and scientifically prove hand analysis from the sceptical, enquiring minds of psychological researchers. But it does seem to be true that this Barnum effect can be used as a cover all support to ensure that anything a hand reader suggests to a client is based on cold reading and the Forer effect. Will we ever overcome this problem? The subject has been discussed now for several years that I am aware of, with no positive outcome.
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hand_research
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:20 am |
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Hi Pam, I just red your mail, and thank you for your additional comments.
I just want you to know that the 'focuss' om my responses was not to discount your abilities. I guess, because I CONTINUED to focuss on this single aspect of your story... the development of this discussion became not amusing for you at all.
Sorry.
Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:21 am by hand_research
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Martijn van Mensvoort
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hand_research
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:57 am |
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Sue Compton wrote:
Will we ever overcome this problem? The subject has been discussed now for several years that I am aware of, with no positive outcome.
Hi Sue,
Thank you for posting your illuminative thoughts on the development of this discussion.
Regarding your question, actually I think one of the positive outcomes of our debates and discussions is that on several Hand Analysis websites the public (including other Hand Analysts + students) is now informed about the Barnum-effect.
However, the only way to OVERCOME this problem is for each of us to keep being focussed to avoid this problem (over and over again). There is no 'standard' solution to overcome this problem for ever.
I think this is an issue which can be related to solving a Zen koän - which is something like a Buddhistic riddle. Knowledge (nor rational understanding) solves the Barnum-problem, only your state of awareness can tackle this problem!
Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:00 am by hand_research
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Martijn van Mensvoort
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Lynn
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:13 am |
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(edit) PS this was written before I saw Martijn's replies.... (which I still haven't read ... hoping I haven't said anything too controversial here  )
Hi Pam,
I remember reading your original post and wish I had replied at the time to tell you that I found it an entertaining lighthearted anecdote & it made me smile. You made it clear you weren't promoting alcohol in conjunction with palm reading! Please don't regret posting it!
It reminded me of a similar evening my friend and I had when we were first learning palmistry. Someone told someone else that we were palmistry students and before we knew it, they were lining up! We joke about our first "paid" reading being for the price of half pint of lager! We told them we are just learning so don't take it too seriously, and it enabled us to get chance to see lots of hands in one evening, get a feel for some basics like skin texture. Nothing wrong with it, it was a bit of fun.
To answer Martijn's question, of course it would not be right for the reader to have consumed alcohol before a professional reading. Also I don't think it's right to read hands if the client has been drinking. We used to do handreading parties at people's houses, but stopped that after a few bad experiences - one was when the people we were reading for became gradually very drunk throughout the evening, it was a nightmare for us.
Pam I agree with your comment "Just because a person is a professional, does not mean they have great ability." I guess above I should have said "ethical" rather than "professional".
I can see why you feel put out by Martijn's comments but I think really he wasn't trying to insult your ability or one-up you. When you get to know Martijn, you will know it is one of his passions or habits to point out to any of us when we may be committing a Barnum Effect. It is something he feels strongly about and his aim is to get away from the traditional image of palmistry to a more scientific basis. I respect the hard work Martijn does to promote hand analysis, his research into the scientific side, his palmistry network bringing together palmists from all over the world, his collection of articles and news stories.
Sorry Martijn to speak about you as if you aren't here! You will correct me if I make any errors in my statements!
Martijn - although I think you are right to make us aware of it - I do think you labour the Barnum message a bit too much sometimes, for example here Pam was just making an entertaining message, and the alcohol was just a small part of her statement about the social pleasures of handreading.
Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 10:34 am by Lynn
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Tobias
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 06:51 am |
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Hi Pam,
I enjoyed your anecdote and applaud your commonsense approach. Many people might have shrunk into their shells but you used your talents to open doors.
Just like Lynn, I've given up doing reading at drink filled parties as I tend to get a very sore throat shouting over the noise and speaking to those who are (generally) becoming too inebriated to understand what I am saying.
I welcome Martjin's website as it provides great food for thought and is a very useful and practical launchpad for all with questioning attitudes.
I just read the Barnum effect and the entries for Cold Reading, and Palmistry through the links Martjin provides on his site.
The article about Palmistry was a fair call as far as it went, but it grouped all forms of palmistry into the cadre of fortune-telling. It exposed the pitfalls of prediction but completely ignored (or the author was totally ignorant - or a really bad researcher! - of) the psychological aspects as espoused by most of us.
I have to agree that it should give one a reason to pause for thought; however, not to stop thinking. I found the attitude of the articles far from open-minded which is the meaning of the word SCEPTIC/SKEPTIC. The articles had a definite snobbery, superiority point of view and talked down to anyone who might even remotely consider even thinking about testing the theories as potentially positive.
The authors seem to forget that, while putting down graphology, palmistry, profiling, Myers-Briggs, etc., their own (personally) highly recommended psychology was considered a mere interest and an 'art' not to be given any scientific credence not more than a century ago. Yet psychology itself relies implicitly on exactly the type of foundation and studies that are impugned by the so-called sceptics..
Scientific thinking is negative thinking. Prove something exists by proving that it CAN'T exist first - forget about looking at supporting evidence/anecdotal implications. Also, if there is no financial backing for such a study, no easily quantified (and immediately obvious) commercial gain to be obtained, no funding will be given - and the Pavlov's dog reactions of the 'scientific' community will be to salivate in the direction of more profitable pursuits.
OK I'm off my soap-box now,
Tobias
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Karla Kogan
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 30th, 2005 |
| Location: | Prunedale, California USA |
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Posted: Sat May 24th, 2008 03:54 pm |
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Hey Everyone! Wow, I've been gone awhile and such deep and tense discussions are brewing around here! Yikes! Tobias, thank you for you comment, I felt the same when reading that article...as if it were about someone purposefully being a charlatan. Perhaps I missed the intent of the study, but that's how it came across. For myself, I'm not shady enough or organized enough to come up with pre-fab comments for my clients. What I see is what they get! I have, however, come up with a few NICE ways to say things that pop up occasionally that could be construed as negative. Perhaps an addiction line referred to as "a sensitivity to drugs and/or alcohol that may potentially affect you more strongly and habitually than others" So is that considered a generic comment designed to make a client identify with me positively? I don't think so. I feel that all readings should be positive and constructive AND TRUTHFUL.
Drinking makes it easier for the ice to break. Many folks would never speak to a palmist or line up to have their hand read because they are normally reserved about such things. People become more adventuraous and open usually. In any social situation, particularly one where people are partying, there is nothing wrong with talking about what you do and giving a few examples, even if it's on your OWN hand. One could just say, "I'm having fun tonight, isn't palmistry cool? But let's get together and really look at your hand, here's my card." If you charge, you could offer a discount since you were having so much fun together at the party! I have to agree, if it's a loud and raging party, people won't recall much of what you say anyway.
Also, that was a smart comment about "loose lips". I know I would probably do that if I read hands after a few glasses of wine. "Oh what have we got here? Oh my, let me take a look at that!" Because sometimes I think that in my head! Don't you? Ha ha ha! Not a good idea for me anyway!
Website looks very posh! What changes! Missed y'all! Got married! Will have to change my name on here now!
Karla 
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